This was a question that recently was sent in to me, and I covered it a bit in the article that I wrote about removing the Citroen D Model fuel tank, but I will go into greater depth here.

What I will be explaining here is the removal of a fastener from your vintage Citroen . Most of these fasteners will be 25 plus years old, and you are perhaps removing them for the first time since the Citroen was new.

Depending on the location and the vintage, and of course where a fastener has spent it’s life, can have a great deal to do with how difficult it might be to remove when you want to take it apart.

When I say location, I mean if the fastener is located under the dash of your Citroen or holding the front bumper on will make a great deal of difference as to how you want to approach removal.

If the Citroen was ever run in the winter on salty streets, or for that matter lived in the  humid eastern part of the U.S. or the drier western part will also make a huge difference.

If the fastener is located inside the Citroen interior and did not see any corrosive damage, it should be relatively easy to remove. But, if it spent it’s life on the outside, or even worse if it spent it’s life in a location such as the exhaust system of your Citroen where there is a constant change in temperature as the system heats up and then cools off, then you might be in for a challenge.

Several things can be done to help in the removal of a stubborn Citroen fastener and here they are:

• Shock
• Heat
• Penetrant
• Lubrication
• and lots of back and forth movement.

1. Shock: This is something that may not appear at first to be helpful, but can add up in the end. What you want to do is find a way, if possible and space permits,to give a couple of good solid blows with a punch or drift to the end of the fastener head. Be careful to not slip off and mess up or deform it and make it so a wrench or socket will not fit on it. I personally find that this is a very good practice to do when removing Citroen engine head bolts, especially when you have two dissimilar metals at work.
2. Heat: Another way you might want to try if you have a small flame torch and that is to heat up the fastener. This is especially useful when you are trying to remove, and have good access to, a nut that you want to remove. Heat up the Citroen fastener until it is glowing hot. Try to just heat up the nut as much as possible and not the bolt. Once it is glowing be careful not to burn yourself and get a nice (preferably 6 point) socket or box end wrench on the nut. Now, see if it will loosen up at this point. Here is where you really have to use your judgement and take things easy because if you meet any resistance you want to back off and reheat the nut. If I get any movement from the fastener at this point I usually back off and turn it back towards tightning the fastener .
3. Penetrant: Spray a good quality penetrant on the threats and start to work the fastener back and forth tightening and loosening.  With each tightening and loosening you make a little more progress towards removal. This will sort of make the fastener act like a tap or die depending on whether it is a nut or bolt. The fastener will slowly work it’s way through the rust and as you continue to spray penetrant on, things will hopefully wash the threats out, lubricate them and make things easier to remove. The main thing I want to stress here is take it easy. If you meet any resistance stop and think about the problems and time you will waste if you snap that puppy off and have to try to extract the remains of the fastener by the use of a bolt remover, or worse yet have to drill things out. Sometimes that will just happen and you will have no choice but try things easy first to avoid that if possible.
4. Lubricate: When you do get things apart, using products like Never Seez to coat the threads of the Citroen fastener when you replace it will prevent the fastener from being frozen and difficult to remove next time.

Put your comments in the box below,  because I am always open to new ideas for Citroen fastener removal that I have maybe never tried before.

Thanks,

Denis

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Yep, this is a rant.

Ever have a classic Citroen that you are working on and go into a modern day auto parts store looking for a set of spark plugs for it?

Here is how it goes, you walk in and let’s say for example you have been working on a 1972 Citroen SM and you want a set of Champion 415 spark plugs? You go to the counter and there sits a 19 year old. His hands are poised over the key pad of the store computer. You ask him: “Do you sell Champion Spark Plugs”? He answers: “Yes we do”

You now ask:” Great, would you have 6, Champion 415 in stock”? To this the store clerk answers: “What kind of car is that for”? To this you answer” What difference does it make I gave you the part number” Now the clerk gets a very strange look on his face and tells you that unless he knows the make and model of the car he will not be able to look it up.

Now here is where it really gets funny in this particular case. You finally tell the clerk that the spark plug that you have given him the part number for is used on a 1972 Citroen SM. He next asks : “How do you spell that”? With your blood pressure slowly rising you spell out C-I-T-R-O-E-N. He then asks: “who makes that, Pontiac, or Oldsmobile”?

At this point you hold your tongue and politely explain that, that is the name of the car company, and would you please just look up and see if you have any Champion 415 plugs in stock? To this he answers that he has never heard of that car and unless he can find a listing for it on his computer he can’t find the plugs for me.

Remember if you can, back in the old days when you went into an auto parts store and 4 guys sat behind the counter on bar stools and each had a set of parts catalogs clamped into a 7 foot long binder in front of him. If you knew the part number for the part you needed he might take a quick glance at a catalog and then get off his stool walk back to the shelves in the back of the store and emerge with your part. It was pretty easy stuff, with very little anxiety.

Now, I was thinking that I need a bottle of Armour-all. No particular one of my cars in mind to use it on. Think it would be safe to say I could get it at my local auto parts store without too many questions?

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Question

I have problem with my Citroen CX 25 turbo 2 rear brakes. Front work perfect, but rear not! I changed 3 brake valves and same result. All spheres have proper pressure, so I have no idea how find solution.

Citroen Tech Tip

One thing that we have noticed lately here at Citroen Tech Tips is that quite a few people having trouble with bleeding down the rear brakes in most any of the Citroëns with Hydraulic suspension.

What has to be realized is that the rear brakes don’t come into use on these cars unless there is a good bit of weight in the rear because of the brake proportioning system.  This system puts most of the braking force to the front wheels because most all of the weight of these cars is biased toward the front of the car. Plus these cars for the most part have their rear brakes fed by the rear suspension.

The typical situation we hear about. is a person has done some brake work on the car and the system was opened up, or they had a brake accumulator that ruptured or leaked nitrogen into the system. They work on the system and then take the Citroën out for a ride and notice that the rear of the car dives down every time they apply the brakes. An attempt is made to bleed the brakes but no fluid comes out of the rear brake bleed screws.

How to properly bleed down the rear brakes on a Citroën with hydraulic suspension.

First safely put the Citroen up onto jack stands, or on a lift. With the engine running put the Citroën in the highest suspension position. With an assistant applying the brakes in the car bleed the front brakes.

Now come to the back of the car and bleed the rear brakes. It is very important to have a Citroën with hydraulic suspension in it’s high position when bleeding the brakes or you will not get the rear ones to bleed down. This  means even when you have it elevated and the wheels are hanging, because when the wheels are hanging the rear brakes are completely shut of hydraulically unless the suspension is in the highest position.

Good luck and be safe when doing this procedure. Hope this Citroen Tech Tip helps.

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One of the most common questions people ask about their high pressure Citroëns hydraulic systems is… How do I release the pressure on the hydraulic system to remove a sphere?

The last time I tried I carefully loosened the bleed screw on the regulator, but still got a hydraulic bath when I tried to remove a sphere”

Well there can often be more to releasing all the pressure on the Citroën hydraulic system then just opening up the bleed screw on the regulator, because there will still be residual pressure in the system even after that is done.

Here is a method that you might want to try: First get yourself some eye protection in the form of some safety glasses or goggles. Next turn the engine off on the Citroën. Open the bleed screw on the regulator. (this can be located in various places depending on the particular model of Citroën) Check your owners manual if you have one.

If not look for the sphere in the engine compartment that is attached to a  metal bodied component with two steel lines and one rubber hose coming from the body of the component. That seems to be the easiest way to describe it if you don’t already know where it is located.

Once you have located the regulator, check for a bolt head on the side of it that should be 12mm in size. With the car turned off loosen this screw about a quarter of a turn. You will hear the pressure release in the system when you do this.  Now move into the interior of the car and grab hold of the height adjusting lever or switch . This is located down by your foot on a D series Citroën, and in the center console on GS, and early CX, and a sliding switch in the center console on later Hydraulic Citroëns.

What you want to do with that lever or switch is move it to the lowest position first and let the Citroën settle completely down. Now that it is in it’s lowest position and resting on it’s bump stops, move the lever or switch to the highest position. If the Citroën still has residual pressure in the system you will notice it attempt to lift up.  What you want to do at this point is move the lever or switch slowly back and forth between these two positions until you don’t get any more reaction out of the car and it just stays down in the lowest position.

At this point the hydraulic system of your Citroën should be completely depressurized. Now move around to the front of the car and grab hold of one of the two suspension spheres and try to move the sphere from side to side . You should be able to get some movement out of them showing you that the suspension no longer has any pressure in it. Now you should be able to remove any of the spheres without getting a hydraulic bath; but be sure to keep those safety glasses on for your own safety.

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So you want to flush out your Citroën hydraulic system?

OK, so one last hydraulic article and I will move on to other topics, but I couldn’t let you get away with out telling you about a hydraulic flushing product made by Total called Hydraurincage . We seem to call it Hydroflush over here, but Hydraurincage is the correct name for it from the mother land.

This is a good product that I personally have had some very good results with. Any LHM vehicle can benefit from the use of this product if it has any age on it or has sat around or been in storage for any length of time. Total’s Hydraurincage will flush and clean out the hydraulic system making it perform very near to new again.

Now here is what the manufacturer says for use instructions.

1. Drain the hydraulic system as much as possible (Also clean out the Hydraulic filter at this time)
2. Fill the system with TOTAL Hydraurincage . (Bleed the brakes until you see Hydraurincage coming out) (You want it throughout the system to get maximum results.)
3. Drive the vehicle for 1500 to 5000 Km maximum. (Take through one oil change or 3000 Miles)
4. Drain and clean the hydraulic filters . (You will be amazed at the amount of crud you will find)
5. Refill system with Total LHM Plus . (Bleed those brakes once again until you see LHM coming out)

The results that I have found with Total Hydraurincage in the system for just 100 miles is pretty profound. Much better steering response. If the car had Citromatic , or a hydraulic shifting transmission , the shifting was night and day better.

The ride was even improved. In fact, I am told that the product was developed during the production of the CX to help with the varnishing up of the suspension cylinders causing sticking in the suspension cylinder pistons and a harsh ride.

However it was developed is beside the point. It is just a very good product that should be used in every old LHM Citromatic transmission before you set it up with the Dellinger adjusting article .

Total Hydraurincage can be purchased in this country in the East from Brad Nauss Automotive at www.bradnaussauto.com phone: 717-691-8550. Tell Brad you want hydraulic system flush . (and tell him Denis Foley sent you. :0) )

In the West it can be found at www.westernhemisphers.com It is listed as part# M-1200435 Cleaner,hydraulic flush Total.

Now what this product does is get all the varnish and dirt out of the system and bring it back to the filter, and it holds the smaller stuff in suspension until you drain it out. Very good product that I can’t say enough about. Take care of those Citroen beauties, don’t make ‘em any more.

Later,

Denis

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What do you do if your Citroen has a contaminated Hydraulic System?

I know that I have harped on this subject for several articles now, but it is more of a problem than you might think. I found when I worked on Citroens , the cars either caught fire and burned or were abandoned because the hydraulic system had become contaminated and the owner found out that it was going to be mighty expensive to repair the car.

Well, the shop manuals and the dealer bulletins would tell you to replace some of the major rubber components. Then, if the car was a brake fluid car you were supposed to flush the lines out with first alcohol , then (I love this) gasoline , then alcohol again. If the car was LHM you were to use: gasoline , then alcohol . The systems were then to have compressed air blown through them to dry things out.

Now here is my advice…

Most cars, unless you catch it right away, are far too gone with rubber deterioration to merely have a few things replaced and then blow things down with air. What you have to realize is, just like a dirty gas tank , you either deal with it completely or walk away from the car.

You have to weigh what the car is really worth to you and the market, because what I am going to tell you is the cheapest way to deal with this problem.

Find another Citroën of the same vintage with the same hydraulic items on it. What I mean here is, if it has a Citromatic or hydraulic assisted transmission , you want to find another car with that same option.

Now this Citroen should be one with all the proper hydraulic parts and systems intact, but find one that is either an accident casualty, or a car with a rusted out frame. If you find one that is both then you really did well, because that means you can probably buy this Citorën quite cheap and in this situation, that is the name of the game.

Next you want to put your Citroën next to it, remove all the body panels, put it up on jack stands or a lift and start removing all the hydraulic components , and I mean everything . This includes all rubber hoses and return lines , even the hydraulic tank . Once this is done you want to shoot carb cleaner and then compressed air through all the steel lines that are still on the car.

Repeat this process twice.

Now that is done, sit that rusted out car that you purchased with the same components on it next to your keeper and start removing the parts from it and putting them on yours. This will probably take you or your mechanic a good 40 hours worth of labor time, so be sure to weigh this into the final cost of things when you figure whether your car is worth performing this task on or just walking away from.

Be a realist and face up to the fact that unless your Citroën is a fine example with a fresh motor, a nice interior, sweet frame, and a good looking paint job, you might be better off trying to find another nice example of your car without a contaminated hydraulic system .

This problem will not just go away on it’s own.

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Do you think your Citroën has contaminated hydraulic fluid ?

My little video yesterday showed you a simple test to do if the LHM system has a little brake fluid in it. Now I will tell you some of the tell tale signs to look out for when the system might be contaminated.

This may seem silly for a system that is marked properly on the hydraulic reservoir for what type of fluid it should take. But, many of these cars change hands numerous times. (just watch eBay for a few months and you will probably see the same car come up again and again with a different seller each time) There are just people out there who might toss something into the system before they realize what it takes.

The hydraulic system of the Citroen is composed of quite a few rubber components. In the early days, with the Citroën15/6 H and the early D Model, a rubber called EPDM was used when LHS2 , a form of brake fluid , was used.

Later, when they devised a rubber that would stand up to mineral based oil, they started to use Buna . A few other types have come along over the years as improvements in rubber manufacturing have been devised.

One thing I have to say here about EPDM compared to Buna in standing up to its respective fluids, is that EPDM stands up far better to brake fluid in the long run than Buna does to LHM . I say this because, when I take apart an old brake fluid sphere to rebuild the rubber diaphragm , it is always in good shape and still holding gas , sometimes almost 50 years on in many cases. (That is if it always had the proper fluid in it.)

The other thing is the EPDM was much less susceptible to molecular diffusion , or the loss of gas then the Buna .

The Buna on the other hand (if it is an original diaphragm ) has always turned to GOOP . The newer rubbers they have now hold up must better I must say, but that original Buna was not good in the long run.

I guess the point I am trying to make here, is that rubber for hydraulic use is designed to hold up to the specific fluid that runs through it. Pollute this in anyway, (and I mean it just takes only 1 to 2 percent of the wrong fluid in the system) and the rubber parts will start to deteriorate very quickly.

The way the system is set up, the parts effected first are those ones with the biggest surface area and the most fluid traveling across them. In the case of the Citroen , this is the diaphragms in the spheres . So, one of the first signs you will probably have is a ride that starts to deteriorate. Next, as the diaphragms blow out and gas from the spheres is injected into the hydraulic system, you will start to get air in the brake system as the gas is circulated through the system.

As the ride deteriorates and the brakes start to get air in them, the fluid level goes down in the system, as the entire sphere needs to be filled up with fluid at this point. You will also notice the hydraulic pump start to cycle with greater frequency.

The steering at this point no longer has any power assist!

Now hopefully the owner realizes what is happening before this situation happens, but if he doesn’t, then he is in for an expensive bill even if he does a lot of the work himself.

Next, I will cover what would be the most cost effective way to handle the above condition.

Later,

Denis

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Here is a quick tip when setting the dwell on your Citroen Traction Avant 11B, the 11BL, or the 15/6. It also works on your Citroen D Model, both 3 main and 5 main bearing models. You can use it for the Citroen GS and pre 1982 GSA or the Citroen SM as well. It even works for the Citroen CX. For that matter, it works for any Citroen model that you may have that is equipped with a distributor with points.

This method can also be used on any car, truck, or motorcycle out there that has a distributor with points.

Assuming you have set the timing and the gap on the points it is now time to set the Dwell. Here are the steps to follow:

• Remove the distributor cap.

• Remove your spark plugs.

• Pull the coil wire from your Citroen’s coil.

• Make sure your Citroen’s transmission is in neutral.

Now connect up your dwell meter. If you have a Citroen D Model you can use the nice little starter relay that is located on the positive post of the battery.

If you are not setting the dwell on a Citroen D Model, then you want to use a remote starter trigger switch that is available at the same auto parts store that you obtained your dwell meter from.

Now we will assume you have a good starter and a fully charged battery.

Get your favorite small, flat blade screwdriver in hand. Flip on your ignition. So with your Citroen’s ignition on, your favorite small flat blade screwdriver on the points adjusting screw in the distributor and the dwell meter turned on, push the relay or starter trigger button and turn the engine over.

As you will notice with the spark plugs removed, the Citroen engine is able to turn over quite quickly with no compression. In fact it will turn over fast enough for you to see what the dwell is and adjust it very quickly.

So hopefully this little tip will let you adjust your Citroen dwell accurately and in a very short amount of time, without having to turn the engine on and off to take your distributor cap on and off.

Best of luck, and please leave your comments and questions.

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Over the years, one of the most asked questions I got about Citroens from both customers and the general public was… “How much is it worth?”

My usual quick answer was… “Whatever someone is willing to pay.”

I know this seems like a bit of smart a** answer, but the real answer is not easy.

The Citroen D Model for example…

Take for example the Citroen DS, the car I worked on the most. If you find one for sale, on eBay for example, it might have been spending the last few years of it’s life sitting under a tree.

Hmmm…

The seller thinks he has a work of art. He discribes how it was running several years ago when parked and how it should be just fine, but later in the discription… there appears to be a hydraulic leak and the car no longer goes up and down.

The seller starts the auction off at $7,000.

Let’s get real here!

Then along comes the highly educated professional who buys the above car. His story usually goes that his uncle had one when he himself was very young and he has always wanted to get one.

He wants to know…

Can he fully restore the car and enjoy it a bit then flip it and make a profit?

NO!!!

Now here is a person who you assume has made some good investments and financial decisions during his life, yet he is bringing this car to you and asking this type of question.

His next question is… “What will it cost to fully restore the car”.

This is where you usually make the person very angry by telling them you simply work for “time and materials”, and that to fully restore the car, the owner will probably spend 7 to 10 times what the car will ever be worth.

Now this is where the guy usually walks off in a huff and calls every other Citroen mechanic he can find. But, he ends up calling you a couple of weeks later saying he has done some research and asks… “Hey, would you be interested in buying the car as is?” Don’t ya just love it?

Here’s the REAL scoop on how to buy a nice Citroen…

My usual answer to someone who wants a nicely restored car and wants to get a fair price on it is to take their time. Join all the clubs, go to club events and talk to everybody.

Find a car that someone has for sale, that was fully restored and maintained by a good reputable Citroen mechanic for several years. (And this is important, because that uncle that spent several summers in France and worked on the cars a bit is not the person you want restoring the car.) You also want to see a paper trail on all the work done on the car.

Next, try to find an owner who has finally gotten the word from his wife that… “he should sell the car because she wants that new kitchen that he had promised her before he bought and then restored that Citroen DS.”

Now here is where that person’s loss is your gain. He dosen’t want to sleep on the couch and you get that car for what it is worth… “A fair price”

Don’t forget to leave your comments below and watch for my article on… Rustproofing your Citroen to keep it’s value.

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Over the years I found that often times a Citroen would come into the shop or a person would send in a set of spheres to rebuild from a car that had a contaminated hydraulic system .

Always bad news to any Citroen owner, this can prove to be one of the most expensive single problems an owner of a Citroen can have. This includes 2CV s because I have seen the wrong fluid put into their hydraulic brake system too.

Back in the old days, the reason for contamination could mostly be blamed on confusion, for there was a period of time from 1966 to 1969 1/2 that cars being sold over here in the U.S. had LHS2 (Brake Fluid Based ) from the factory, while cars being sold in other parts of the world had LHM or (Mineral Based) fluid in them.

Over the years one thing led to another with many owners and people who really should not have been working on the cars putting in the wrong type of fluid.

What I am going to explain is the method I always used to tell if a system is contaminated with either Mineral fluid or Brake fluid.  With this test  we are talking about a Citroen with a complete hydraulic system , ie: brakes, steering, suspension etc.

Here’s a little video to show you how…

The video should have shown you the steps, but if you like to read them as well, here ya go.

What you want to do is get a sample of the fluid, but first you want to get a glass and fill it half full of water. (leave it alone, don’t drink it. :0)

To get an accurate sample this can be done in one of two ways.

1. Either draw off a good 8 ounces or so after the car has been warm and running for a while. (Remove it right from the reservoir).
2. The other way is to drain the entire system.

I prefer the first method if possible. I usually drain this into a jar that you can put a lid onto. Now close the jar and shake it up vigorously.

Now take the jar and open it up and fill the rest of the glass with the contents of your sample. Let it sit for about 15 minutes and then examine the mixture in the glass. Now here is were things get interesting.

Because the brake fluid is hydroscopic it will mix with the water and turn it a milky color. The mineral oil will always separate from the brake fluid and float on the top The main thing in this test is the use of water. Remember the brake fluid will always mix with it and the oil based fluid will always separate.

One way or the other this spells trouble. Next Time I will tell you some of the symptoms you will notice in the car that can point to a system being contaminated .

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